What follows is a verbatim transcript of Dean Rotbart’s recent interview with Todd A. Grimm:
ROTBART: Hello, I’m Dean Rotbart and I’ll be your host for this edition of the US Reliant podcast. Today, we’ll be taking a look at one of the Rapid Prototyping-Rapid Manufacturing industry’s shakers, one of the movers and shakers of the industry; he is Todd A. Grimm of T.A. Grimm & Associates.
Todd is the founder and President of T.A. Grimm & Associates and is well known throughout the Rapid Prototyping-Rapid Manufacturing industry, both as a consultant as well as an accomplished writer and public speaker. Being able to listen to Todd and hear his thoughts on the industry, I believe, will be valuable to anybody who is already involved in the industry or is looking to get involved in this industry.
Since I myself am a relative newcomer to the Rapid Prototyping-Rapid Manufacturing industry, I began my conversation with Todd Grimm by pointing out that, to my point of view, it seems that the industry should be much larger and much more successful, given the innovative technology that it encompasses than it is, and I began by commenting to him that I thought the industry really was small compared to what its potential is:
GRIMM: I’ve been disbelieving that we haven’t been bigger just on straight-up prototyping since day one. It’s funny, I just read an article coming from Business 2.0, picking up on a couple of service bureaus just doing straight-up prototyping, and one throws out the line, “we hope to be the Kinko’s of Rapid Prototyping.” And I scoffed, I honestly laughed, because the reason I got into this is business is I read an article in 1988 in a magazine called Success, it’s primarily for…
What happened? I mean in 1994, we were talking about how this is going to revolutionize production tooling.
ROTBART: I know it.
GRIMM: It’s a single column and it was about Rapid Prototyping and it becoming a service organization, becoming the “Kinko’s of Rapid Prototyping.” Well, the guy who was quoted was my former boss when I was in the CAD/CAM marketplace. I called him and congratulated him on getting in this industry so quickly. Well, he turned around and said “Come join me in this venture.” That was in 1990.
ROTBART: Let me read something to you, okay?
GRIMM: Sure.
ROTBART: Rapid Prototyping Moves Towards Rapid Tooling, by Joseph Ogando. “No longer just for making prototype parts, Rapid Manufacturing systems offer promising shortcuts to production tooling. Imagine if mold-making were this easy.” and I’m skipping around, it quotes you in here, I don’t want to say when. Do you know what year that was written?
GRIMM: I’ve known Joe, I’ve worked giving Joe stuff probably over the last eight years, so I’m guessing it’s circa end of 1990’s.
ROTBART: 1994, January.
GRIMM: I didn’t realize I’d even contributed that early.
ROTBART: Todd Grimm, Manager of Laser Prototypes, Inc.
GRIMM: Oh, my Gosh.
ROTBART: The five year-old stereoithographic service bureau does more than 80% of its business in plastics. What happened, I mean in 1994, we were talking about how this is going to revolutionize production tooling.
GRIMM: What happened was we, and the rest of the industry, came out and said we’ve got a much faster way that will also be cheaper to get you injection molds. We thought that was it; that was the end-all-be-all. And we thought people would just knock down our door to get this. It makes sense, doesn’t it? And this is at a time when prototype tooling was taking easily eight weeks. But eight, ten, twelve weeks was really common. We could do this process on almost anything you threw at us in two to four weeks, to give you injection-molded parts. Dean, what could be more obvious?
ROTBART: Right, it’s building the better mousetrap. GRIMM: Exactly. Well, what happened was, first off, what we were pitching, there were too many negatives. So, we’d call people and they would say, “alright, faster is good, cheaper is good. Now, Todd, what’s the tool life?” “Uh, well, it’s about 30 to 50 parts for your plastic.” This is compared to prototype tooling they’re used to that can deliver tens of thousands of pieces. “Todd, what’s your accuracy?” We were like ten-fold higher on being inaccurate, and they just went down the laundry list of how they would conventionally qualify tooling, and although there are these huge benefits of speed and cost, there was a huge number of negatives. What happened was, if there was anybody in the manufacturing realm, this isn’t really design-engineering world now, this is moving into tooling/manufacturing/engineering, if there was anybody in the client company who did not believe that this was a strong solution, they had so much firepower to shoot anybody down who even dared to enter their office to say let’s try this, if they wanted to. So, you needed a real strong champion, but also you needed an openness in the corporation to try something dramatically different, and also to invest the time to learn when it made the most sense to apply it. Because it wasn’t for everything. You had to pick and choose your marks carefully. The other aspect of it is even if we found somebody who wanted to, there were so many limitations on the process that, let’s say you had a widget and that widget needed ten injection-molded parts, well, it was very likely we could do three of the ten. ROTBART: Interesting.
You’ve got to paint the broader picture, and the key thing is you have to show people that you are not doing things incrementally better, you’re doing something so dramatically different, something that is impossible with their current tools, that there is the motivation.
GRIMM: And [what] people would [say] was, “If you can only do three of the ten, yes, you’ve saved me a month on those three, but I’m still not going to get the other seven until a month later, yet I’ve got all the sacrifice, Todd, it doesn’t make any sense.” And they’d go back to normal. So, what we were really fighting, Dean, was status quo, tradition,
I can’t take this quote, got on the reverse engineering side, the scanning side of the world uses this, so this is not mine, but he says he’s always battling religion, tradition and superstition. That is so perfect in the manufacturing world, it really is one where those three things tend to drive the world of manufacturing. And I’m not putting people down, but it tends not to be overly aggressive in new technology, overly aggressive in doing things differently, and much more conservative.
So, you’ve got this element within a corporation that wants to hold onto things and change very slowly, and here we come, the new guys in town, saying, “we’re going to upset your applecart. As a matter of fact, a lot of your people, if this takes off, are going to lose their jobs” was kind of the attitude we had, and we gave them every reason in the world to fight us because we came out as a threat, and we were banging our chests, and we had our hats handed to us.
Well, industry as a whole didn’t realize what I had rapidly come to realize, which is we had the wrong message, Dean. We were coming out there with, “we’re going to save you time, we’re going to save you money” and there is all these negatives and all these threats. The reason I wrote the article like the one on Rapid Manufacturing is because I’ve come to learn it’s a lot more than time and money. You’ve got to paint the broader picture, and the key thing is you have to show people that you are not doing things incrementally better, you’re doing something so dramatically different, something that is impossible with their current tools, that there is the motivation. There’s the compelling.
ROTBART: The real opportunity, as Todd Grimm sees it for Rapid Prototyping and Rapid Manufacturing is not in mirroring or mimicking existing production capabilities, but is in innovating and really doing the impossible.
GRIMM: If you hold these additive fabrication technologies to the same standards, and that’s the key, the same standards as the manufacturing processes that you currently use, we will fail invariably in almost every single category. We can’t hit the tolerances that they are able to hit with injection-molded parts or dye-cast parts; we can’t give you the surface finish. We can’t give you anywhere near the through-put number of parts per hour that you can get once you have tools running, you can go down the list.
The other thing is quality, not only is it accuracy, but we’ve got technology that you can’t even say is repeatable. I can build the same part in the same machine on two different days, and you’re going to have two different results, both mechanical properties and the accuracy side. Now that might be 1/10th of 1%, but that variance is something that now we don’t have to look at a change at how the quality control department qualifies these parts, because if you use the standard SPC, statistical process control, and CPK data, and the quality labs for qualifying injection-molded parts, we will fail every time, because every part is unique because it’s not being constrained by a tool that if you use the same temperature and pressure on injection molding machine you know you’re going to get the same part out, which isn’t actually true, there’s variance even in injection-molded parts, but smaller.
ROTBART: Where is the failure in the scanning? Is it in the computer programming? Is it in the prototyping machine? Is it in all of the above?
GRIMM: It’s really in the machine, and I wouldn’t call it a “failure” let’s say “limitation.” Where we are with the state-of-the-art, it’s a limitation in how the parts are being grown. Which comes from a number of reasons. One, that a lot of people point to and I firmly agree, these machines are designed as prototype devices from day one; the quality constraints, for example, or the material properties you need for prototype are much more rigorous than for manufacturing, but we were designing these machines to the specs and the needs of prototyping, not to manufacturing.
We’ve been trying to take these prototype machines, put a few more bells and whistles and tweak the controls to turn them into manufacturing, and there is some degree of success. A lot of people believe that companies have to start with a clean slate, and it might even mean changes to your fundamental process. Fused Deposition Modeling may not be the way to do it, as they do it currently today. And it might not be the stereolithography process with the same lasers and the same set of materials, so we need to, and I’m not putting blame on the vendors by any means, they’ve got a lot of constraints including cash-flow and finance, we haven’t hit that critical mass where there are so many people buying the equipment that there’s tons of moneys to go back into research and development and make it better, and now it snowballs and snowballs, we haven’t hit that yet.
So, that’s one of the issues, it is the technology itself and the technology is great for what it has done in the past and what it’s doing today, but we’ve got some serious limitations that have to be overcome. And the vendors are looking at that. An article that Joe Ogando most recently published on Rapid Manufacturing quotes Stratasys marketing guy, Fred Fisher, is noting that their most recent machine has been designed purely for Rapid Manufacturing, and I happen to be privy to some of the inside data to qualify that and I agree, it is a tremendous improvement over their previous equipment in looking at the kind of things a Quality Manager would in manufacturing, but you ask them straight up they’ll say no, we’re not where we need to be. We still have to move the technology ahead.
It’s a technology issue, but the thing, Dean, that really bugs me, and this is a human being thing that I can’t change, you can’t change with a book, we can’t change if we go and get on Oprah and every other talk show and we’re on the evening news, because it’s so ingrained in us, what is happening is we’re looking at this new technology and we’re taking the path of least resistance where we’re comfortable and we’re qualifying this new technology against the same standards we used for our current practices, and those standards are not appropriate.
We have to learn how to qualify what quality is for a brand new set of technology and set up processes, procedures, practices and policies that enable us to use what comes out of the machines today and then all the improvements tomorrow and the years to come…
I’ve talked to dozens of people who have a business idea that’s built on rapid direct-digital manufacturing. Dozens.
ROTBART: A good example, as Grimm notes, is the hearing aid manufacturing industry, which has successfully embraced Rapid Prototyping and Rapid Manufacturing as a role model for what other industries and other applications might be.
GRIMM: You’ve seen it a thousand times already, I’m sure, hearing aids.
ROTBART: Right.
GRIMM: The reason that makes sense is that every one is custom. I’ll tell you a story on that one. First off, hearing aids is not an overnight success, it’s not the slam-dunk that some people perceive.
My first conversation personally with Siemens on making hearing aids using this technology was in 1991. They’ve been looking at it that long, trying to make it work, and my answer to them in 1991 was you’re barking up the wrong tree for where we are right now. You don’t have scanning technology to get what the human ear looks like, the individual ear, our materials are way too brittle and they told me what they are currently doing and I said I can’t even beat you on speed. So they spent right about ten years, a decade, to make it successful.
The reason it’s successful is because it absolutely has to be custom, which makes this technology ideal. But the other thing is the bigger business issues too. I was blown away by this, one of the hearing aid manufactures told me that, although there are benefits in cost and delivery, they had a surprise benefit; and the surprise benefit was they had fewer returns. That’s where the big hit positive to the pocketbook came from, because the issue with the semi hand-fabricated hearing aids, that each one was tweaked by human hand, before it went into somebody’s ear was fit, and if the fit wasn’t right, too tight or too loose, it was either uncomfortable or they got feedback, it didn’t perform as it should, and they get it returned and now they’ve got to make a new one, with all of the same costs, well, because it was a digital process taking out that human involvement, they were finding that the fit was much better, the return rates fell through the floor and profitability shot up.
And, they had happier customers who kept coming back, but profitability, because they didn’t have that huge volume of returns, skyrocketed. So, it’s finding those “ah ha” benefits. It’s not doing it ten minutes faster for a custom hearing aid, although that’s beneficial, and I don’t even know the whole story. If you peeled back the roof of one of these hearing aid companies, I’m sure if you looked at processes, procedures or the number of people or all of those infrastructure kind of questions, I bet you a lot of it has changed and some of the biggest benefits that I’m not aware of are coming from things that just happen internally that no one would ever see.
ROTBART: So who will be the ones to embrace Rapid Prototyping and Rapid Manufacturing to solve the impossible, to deliver new products and new ideas that become large commercial successes? Don’t look now, but Todd Grimm believes it will be the good ol’ American entrepreneur. He or she who has belief in himself, who goes out, takes the risks and uses the technologies in innovative ways.
GRIMM: I delivered a presentation for Stratasys, they had some seminars about two years ago that’s talking about direct digital manufacturing, that’s pointing out all of the good things, but told people that my standard line is, “I will be in ugly plaid pants in my lounge chair smoking a cigar,” meaning fully-retired before it ever becomes a reality in a big way, but I turnaround and say, “however, do not sit and rest on that fact as comfort, because your biggest threat is not your current competitors.
The biggest threat is, like you just said, talking with the inventors, your biggest threat is now, everyone, of any size, has the same abilities as you do, because they don’t have to come up with huge financial assets to buy all the tooling to make a few hundred to get them on the market and take this risk. Now they can make a few at a time; so, the biggest competitor could be the little small guy, and I honestly think, you’re talking about you’ve got to design something brand new, it’s got to be innovative in every way, that kind of fits the model of the little guy, and I just read an article it was Industry Week or BusinessWeek, or somebody, who said that there is some growth in manufacturing currently, but you can look at the numbers, it’s small companies who are doing traditional manufacturing in the United States.
If there is any growth at all, or any stability, it’s really from those guys, because a) they’ve got the patriotism; I’m not going to send this offshore or they don’t have the skill set in the people to offshore it, they’re forced to do it here. So, you look at that, they’re looking for a way to do it; this is a way that could do it; they’re innovators looking to change markets and come up with new products. You look at that package of things, it really makes sense that they could be the catalyst to make this really really happen. I’ve talked to dozens of people who have a business idea that’s built on rapid direct-digital manufacturing. Dozens.
Whether they will make them come to fruition anytime soon, who knows, but I’m not asking them if I can invest in their companies to give you some idea, but once again I’m conservative, so it could go either way, but there are a lot of people thinking about it and trying to, not build a better mousetrap, they’re trying to come up with a way that you don’t even need a mousetrap to get rid of your infestation problem.
ROTBART: To learn more about Todd Grimm, you are welcome to visit his website at TAgrimm.com. You can also contact him at T.A. Grimm & Associates in Edgewood, Kentucky. His phone number is (859) 331-5340 or email Todd atTGrimm@TAGrimm.com.
For US Reliant, I’m Dean Rotbart. Thank you for listening.